(too old to reply)
Bobcat 610 Changing to a Chevy Alternator
a***@notmail.com
2007-10-29 10:56:55 UTC
I just bought a used Bobcat 610 Skid Loader that does not charge the
battery. It has a generator and 3 wire voltage regulator. Someone
before I bought it really messed up the wiring. In fact I had to
check over the whole thing very carefully because several times it
would kill and I'd see sparks. I carefully capped and taped all bare
wires, several of which went nowhere. The engine runs, so that
verifies the innition system is getting power. However, the battery
drains quickly. I had the battery tested and they said it was fine.
The amp gauge does not work, but I can tell even without it that there
is no charging from the generator. Personally, I always hated those
old generators because of all the excessive wiring to the regulator.
Besides that, I cant even remember how to test the generator and
regulators anymore.

I can get a Chevy alternator at the scrap yard pretty cheap. Rather
than waste hours trying to figure out how to test the generator and
determine if all the messed up wiring is connected the way it should
be, it seems easier to just install the chevy alternator. The
question arises whether it will physically fit to the brackets. Does
anyone know? One other thing. It seems to me that the old generators
REQUIRED the amp gauge as a resistance source. Is that true, and if
so, will the alternator need it too? I tend to wonder if the dead amp
gauge is the reason there is no charging now????

Thanks

By the way, anyone know if there are Chilton books or other such books
made for Bobcats?

Alvin
Jack Hunt
2007-10-29 19:36:51 UTC
Post by a***@notmail.com
The
question arises whether it will physically fit to the brackets. Does
anyone know?
Without knowing the dimensions of either your brackets or the alternator you're
going to pick up, the answer is no, nobody knows. The other answer is that you
can make anything line up if you want to bad enough. A GM one-wire alternator
is a common fix for troublesome charging systems.
Post by a***@notmail.com
One other thing. It seems to me that the old generators
REQUIRED the amp gauge as a resistance source. Is that true
No, and no. You don't need an ammeter. A voltmeter is good, it will tell you
if your battery is being charged or not while you're running.
Post by a***@notmail.com
I tend to wonder if the dead amp
gauge is the reason there is no charging now?
I tend to wonder if the cut wires have anything to do with it?

I once put a Toyota alternator and a GM regulator on a 1946 Allis Chalmers
tractor and it worked just fine. It didn't have an ammeter or voltmeter but it
kept the battery charged and ran the headlights.

Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is "a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".

--
Jack
Bob Noble
2007-10-30 05:32:55 UTC
Post by Jack Hunt
Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is "a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".
An open circuit?
If the battery is removed, that takes the voltage off the field of the
alternator and there will be no voltage anywhere.
So, I must not be understanding something?
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
Post by Jack Hunt
Post by a***@notmail.com
The
question arises whether it will physically fit to the brackets. Does
anyone know?
Without knowing the dimensions of either your brackets or the alternator you're
going to pick up, the answer is no, nobody knows. The other answer is that you
can make anything line up if you want to bad enough. A GM one-wire alternator
is a common fix for troublesome charging systems.
Post by a***@notmail.com
One other thing. It seems to me that the old generators
REQUIRED the amp gauge as a resistance source. Is that true
No, and no. You don't need an ammeter. A voltmeter is good, it will tell you
if your battery is being charged or not while you're running.
Post by a***@notmail.com
I tend to wonder if the dead amp
gauge is the reason there is no charging now?
I tend to wonder if the cut wires have anything to do with it?
I once put a Toyota alternator and a GM regulator on a 1946 Allis Chalmers
tractor and it worked just fine. It didn't have an ammeter or voltmeter but it
kept the battery charged and ran the headlights.
--
Jack
Glenn
2007-10-30 13:45:45 UTC
Maybe it's like an experience I had some 60 yrs ago. A
cable jumped off the battery while driving, on my pride
and joy, 37 Ford Tutor and EVERY bulb in the car burned
out. This was during the day when nothing was turned
on. Even my pride and joy, my sealed beam head lights,
both dim and bright. No one, including electrical
engineers that I have known, have really explained it
well. "Well it arced." Hell, I know that, but nothing
was turned on.
Post by Bob Noble
Post by Jack Hunt
Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off
while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on
an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is
"a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".
An open circuit?
If the battery is removed, that takes the voltage off
the field of the alternator and there will be no
voltage anywhere.
So, I must not be understanding something?
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
Post by Jack Hunt
On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:56:55 -0500,
Post by a***@notmail.com
The
question arises whether it will physically fit to
the brackets. Does
anyone know?
Without knowing the dimensions of either your
brackets or the alternator you're
going to pick up, the answer is no, nobody knows.
The other answer is that you
can make anything line up if you want to bad enough.
A GM one-wire alternator
is a common fix for troublesome charging systems.
Post by a***@notmail.com
One other thing. It seems to me that the old
generators
REQUIRED the amp gauge as a resistance source. Is
that true
No, and no. You don't need an ammeter. A voltmeter
is good, it will tell you
if your battery is being charged or not while you're
running.
Post by a***@notmail.com
I tend to wonder if the dead amp
gauge is the reason there is no charging now?
I tend to wonder if the cut wires have anything to
do with it?
I once put a Toyota alternator and a GM regulator on
a 1946 Allis Chalmers
tractor and it worked just fine. It didn't have an
ammeter or voltmeter but it
kept the battery charged and ran the headlights.
--
Jack
Clif Holland
2007-10-30 16:25:32 UTC
In my understanding of the single wire alternator, it once excited, is self
exciting. There is only one wire if you discount the wire for the idiot
light. The alternator senses battery voltage thru that wire and outputs
~14v. If the battery is removed it just cranks up everything to try and
maintain 14v.
--
Clif
Post by Bob Noble
Post by Jack Hunt
Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is "a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".
An open circuit?
If the battery is removed, that takes the voltage off the field of the
alternator and there will be no voltage anywhere.
So, I must not be understanding something?
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
Post by Jack Hunt
Post by a***@notmail.com
The
question arises whether it will physically fit to the brackets. Does
anyone know?
Without knowing the dimensions of either your brackets or the alternator you're
going to pick up, the answer is no, nobody knows. The other answer is that you
can make anything line up if you want to bad enough. A GM one-wire alternator
is a common fix for troublesome charging systems.
Post by a***@notmail.com
One other thing. It seems to me that the old generators
REQUIRED the amp gauge as a resistance source. Is that true
No, and no. You don't need an ammeter. A voltmeter is good, it will tell you
if your battery is being charged or not while you're running.
Post by a***@notmail.com
I tend to wonder if the dead amp
gauge is the reason there is no charging now?
I tend to wonder if the cut wires have anything to do with it?
I once put a Toyota alternator and a GM regulator on a 1946 Allis Chalmers
tractor and it worked just fine. It didn't have an ammeter or voltmeter but it
kept the battery charged and ran the headlights.
--
Jack
Steve Barker
2007-10-30 18:45:31 UTC
Not true. We've run machines for days without batteries in them.


s
Post by Jack Hunt
Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is "a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".
--
Jack
Steve Barker
2007-10-30 18:46:40 UTC
Again, not possible. If the lighting circuits were not on, then there's NO
way they could burn out the bulbs. Also, it's not likely they would burn
out even if they WERE turned on.

s
Maybe it's like an experience I had some 60 yrs ago. A cable jumped off
the battery while driving, on my pride and joy, 37 Ford Tutor and EVERY
bulb in the car burned out. This was during the day when nothing was
turned on. Even my pride and joy, my sealed beam head lights, both dim
and bright. No one, including electrical engineers that I have known,
have really explained it well. "Well it arced." Hell, I know that, but
nothing was turned on.
Glenn
2007-10-30 19:05:36 UTC
Ahh but it DID.

WHY would I make something like that up?

This isn't a STORY I heard of. It was MY car I was
the one paying for and replacing the bulbs, even in the
dash board where you can't hardly reach them..
Post by Steve Barker
Again, not possible. If the lighting circuits were
not on, then there's NO way they could burn out the
bulbs. Also, it's not likely they would burn out
even if they WERE turned on.
s
Post by Glenn
Maybe it's like an experience I had some 60 yrs ago.
A cable jumped off the battery while driving, on my
pride and joy, 37 Ford Tutor and EVERY bulb in the
car burned out. This was during the day when
nothing was turned on. Even my pride and joy, my
sealed beam head lights, both dim and bright. No
one, including electrical engineers that I have
known, have really explained it well. "Well it
arced." Hell, I know that, but nothing was turned
on.
jjfjksdf
2007-10-31 00:47:44 UTC
Post by Glenn
Ahh but it DID.
WHY would I make something like that up?
This isn't a STORY I heard of. It was MY car I was the one paying for
and replacing the bulbs, even in the dash board where you can't hardly
reach them..
You should post that story over in sci.electronics.misc or
sci.electronics.repair and see what they have to say.
Steve Barker
2007-10-31 01:16:48 UTC
I rekon the same reason so many people make up so many stories. Cause they
want to be included in the conversation? I really don't know. I hear
dozens of stories each day that people have just flat made up. It's the
american way i guess.

s
Post by Glenn
Ahh but it DID.
WHY would I make something like that up?
This isn't a STORY I heard of. It was MY car I was the one paying for
and replacing the bulbs, even in the dash board where you can't hardly
reach them..
Jack Hunt
2007-10-31 01:21:50 UTC
Post by Steve Barker
Not true. We've run machines for days without batteries in them.
More data needed. What kind of machine? Gas or diesel? What kind of charging
system? AC or DC? How did you get it started in the first place and was the
charging system operating at all? I used to bump start an old MF 35 diesel
tractor with no battery but it would run with no electricity at all.

Put a volt meter on your battery cables and pull a cable off the battery. See
where the voltage goes to. I don't know about the single wire jobs, but the old
Delco alternators with the external regulator would go to about 50 VAC. I saw a
Leece Neville alternator go to 90 VAC on a test cabinet.

DC generators are a different story. You CAN run them without a battery with no
harm. But I don't know of anything built since the mid 60s that had a DC
generator. Everything is rectified AC these days.

--
Jack
Glenn
2007-10-31 02:01:52 UTC
Hmmm. I'm being called a liar by an idiot who doesn't
know what he's talking about. Did it happen as I
described it? Yes. Do I give a damn if anybody
believes it? No. Do I need conversation? Not with
the likes of you.
Post by Steve Barker
I rekon the same reason so many people make up so many
stories. Cause they want to be included in the
conversation? I really don't know. I hear dozens of
stories each day that people have just flat made up.
It's the american way i guess.
s
Post by Glenn
Ahh but it DID.
WHY would I make something like that up?
This isn't a STORY I heard of. It was MY car I was
the one paying for and replacing the bulbs, even in
the dash board where you can't hardly reach them..
Steve Barker
2007-10-31 13:54:16 UTC
Alternated vehicles. Mostly gas. some diesel. A ford truck here and
there. If the alternator/regulator is working properly, then it won't hurt
it.

s
Post by Jack Hunt
More data needed. What kind of machine? Gas or diesel? What kind of charging
system? AC or DC? How did you get it started in the first place and was the
charging system operating at all? I used to bump start an old MF 35 diesel
tractor with no battery but it would run with no electricity at all.
Put a volt meter on your battery cables and pull a cable off the battery.
See
where the voltage goes to. I don't know about the single wire jobs, but the old
Delco alternators with the external regulator would go to about 50 VAC. I saw a
Leece Neville alternator go to 90 VAC on a test cabinet.
DC generators are a different story. You CAN run them without a battery with no
harm. But I don't know of anything built since the mid 60s that had a DC
generator. Everything is rectified AC these days.
--
Jack
Steve Barker
2007-10-31 13:55:06 UTC
Oh, so now I'm an idiot for being reasonable and logical? OK.


cya

s


plonk!
Hmmm. I'm being called a liar by an idiot who doesn't know what he's
talking about. Did it happen as I described it? Yes. Do I give a damn
if anybody believes it? No. Do I need conversation? Not with the likes
of you.
Post by Steve Barker
I rekon the same reason so many people make up so many stories. Cause
they want to be included in the conversation? I really don't know. I
hear dozens of stories each day that people have just flat made up. It's
the american way i guess.
s
Post by Glenn
Ahh but it DID.
WHY would I make something like that up?
This isn't a STORY I heard of. It was MY car I was the one paying for
and replacing the bulbs, even in the dash board where you can't hardly
reach them..
Jack Hunt
2007-10-31 14:55:05 UTC
Post by Steve Barker
If the alternator/regulator is working properly, then it won't hurt
it.
Just for the record, you're full it. You didn't answer the question: How did
you get it started in the first place? An alternator system, without an initial
voltage presence, will not generate any electricity. You had to have a good
battery on it, then pull it off after it was running, which, by the way, is
stupid and I don't believe that you did it.

Here's a task for you. Find ANY automotive service manual that recommends
pulling off the cable as a test. or find any manual that even says "that won't
hurt". We'll wait.

But I won't hold my breath. You'll never complete the task because the text
does not exist.

--
Jack
Clif Holland
2007-10-31 18:11:17 UTC
On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:58:22 -0500, "Steve Barker"
Post by Steve Barker
If the alternator/regulator is working properly, then it won't hurt
it.
Just for the record, you're full it. You didn't answer the question: How did
you get it started in the first place? An alternator system, without an initial
voltage presence, will not generate any electricity. You had to have a good
battery on it, then pull it off after it was running, which, by the way, is
stupid and I don't believe that you did it.
Here's a task for you. Find ANY automotive service manual that recommends
pulling off the cable as a test. or find any manual that even says "that won't
hurt". We'll wait.
But I won't hold my breath. You'll never complete the task because the text
does not exist.
--
Jack
I just ignore him. He already called Glenn a liar because his limited
knowledge does not allow him to comprehend what happened. And because he
can't understand it then it's obviously a lie.

Glenn although I can't explain it and neither can anyone else I can believe
it because I've seen other things happen that noone could explain either. It
just comes with getting a little older and wiser.

It's amazing but the older I got the smarter my daddy became.
--
Clif
Glenn
2007-10-31 18:51:25 UTC
Post by Clif Holland
I just ignore him. He already called Glenn a liar
because his limited knowledge does not allow him to
comprehend what happened. And because he can't
understand it then it's obviously a lie.
Glenn although I can't explain it and neither can
anyone else I can believe it because I've seen other
things happen that noone could explain either. It
just comes with getting a little older and wiser.
It's amazing but the older I got the smarter my daddy
became.
One engineer I know of thought maybe the fact that it
was a positive ground, that may have had something to
do with it. I remember I was about a block from home,
our farm was just outside the city limits and the
gravel road was a real washboard. I guess that's what
shook it off.

I liked that old car though, my first. One thing, by
Friday evening, you wanted to drag your foot to get
stopped in time. Every Sat, I would crawl under and
re-adjust the mechanical brakes. It of course had a 6V
generator and the undependable cut out instead of a
voltage regulator. Manifold heater that worked
occasionally. Ahhh memories.
Jack Hunt
2007-11-01 01:34:42 UTC
Post by Glenn
One engineer I know of thought maybe the fact that it
was a positive ground, that may have had something to
do with it.
I don't think that had anything to do with it, but the arc suggestion has some
merit. The old DC generators didn't have the capability to generate much more
than the full charged voltage of a 6V battery, maybe 7 volts or so. But if
there was an arc somewhere like a cutout or a malfunctioning voltage regulator,
that could have contributed to a voltage spike that could have fried your stuff.

Anything is possible. If you had a coil ignition system and not a magneto, you
could have gotten feedback from the secondary to the primary windings and that
would have sent a few thousand volts through the wiring system. Not enough to
cause a fire, but enough to burn out the filament of any bulb that was burning
at the time. If it was enough voltage to jump a small gap, like the distance
between contacts in a headlight switch, that could explain the blown bulbs on a
light system that was supposed to be off.

All it would take would be a stray spark jumping from the rotor button back to
the grounded side of the coil at the breaker points and your whole electrical
system would become a gigantic spark plug.

--
Jack
Don Young
2007-11-01 01:59:34 UTC
On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:49:37 -0500, "Steve Barker"
Post by Steve Barker
Not true. We've run machines for days without batteries in them.
More data needed. What kind of machine? Gas or diesel? What kind of
charging
system? AC or DC? How did you get it started in the first place and was
the
charging system operating at all? I used to bump start an old MF 35
diesel
tractor with no battery but it would run with no electricity at all.
Put a volt meter on your battery cables and pull a cable off the battery.
See
where the voltage goes to. I don't know about the single wire jobs, but
the old
Delco alternators with the external regulator would go to about 50 VAC. I
saw a
Leece Neville alternator go to 90 VAC on a test cabinet.
DC generators are a different story. You CAN run them without a battery
with no
harm. But I don't know of anything built since the mid 60s that had a DC
generator. Everything is rectified AC these days.
--
Jack
IF the regulator is working properly, the voltage will not exceed about 14.4
volts. That's what the regulator does, regulate the voltage to prevent it
from going any higher than needed to fully charge the battery. If the
regulator uses external sensing and the sensing lead is disconnected or if
the regulator is not working, the voltage can get to over 100 volts. There
is a device available which disconnects the battery and bypasses the
regulator to permit using a 12V alternator to operate 120 volt lights and
tools equipped with series motors, such as drills and saws.

The old three brush generators which used only a cutout and no regulator
will definitely burn out the bulbs if the battery becomes disconnected while
running at high speed. It is not a good idea to disconnect the battery even
with a regulator as there is always a risk that the regulator will
malfunction and cause electrical damage.

Don Young
Bob Noble
2007-11-01 05:51:48 UTC
My goodness, we got excited. :O)
Maybe that's what brings out discussion.
I've also learned over the years of fixing things not to doubt the stories.
There is usually an answer if you just had all the pieces.
Now, my JD450C bulldozer runs when the battery cable falls off, so I can
deduce that the alternator is still putting out juice to keep my diesel
solenoid on, without the battery. I also know that a regulated alternator
for twelve volt systems has a maximum regulated output of about 14.6 or so
volts. I've also read many service manuals and can't recall ever seeing any
of them say don't pull the battery cable off while it is running. I'd also
deduce that if disconnecting the battery while the motor was running caused
the wires to fry, there would be zillions of them. This because I have an
opinion of today's modern people, just being key turners and know almost
nothing about what makes anything go.
So, could this happen, I'd have to say, possible, especially on a defective
system. But, I doubt it is a normal type thing.
For sure, most of the time, there is no reason to pull a battery cable off
while the engine is running.
Thanks for all the input.
--
Bob Noble
http://www.sonic.net/bnoble
Maybe it's like an experience I had some 60 yrs ago. A cable jumped off
the battery while driving, on my pride and joy, 37 Ford Tutor and EVERY
bulb in the car burned out. This was during the day when nothing was
turned on. Even my pride and joy, my sealed beam head lights, both dim
and bright. No one, including electrical engineers that I have known,
have really explained it well. "Well it arced." Hell, I know that, but
nothing was turned on.
Post by Bob Noble
Post by Jack Hunt
Whatever you do, DO NOT take the battery cable off while the engine is running.
The only thing that tests is how long it will run on an open circuit before it
fries your entire charging system and the answer is "a few seconds at best,
immediately at worst".
An open circuit?
If the battery is removed, that takes the voltage off the field of the
alternator and there will be no voltage anywhere.
So, I must not be understanding something?
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